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March 20, 2013 1:21 pm  #41


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

I thought I'd like Elementary because I like shows like Bones, I've watched five full episodes and had to force myself to finish them (like when I read the twilight series becase sisters and some of my friends begged me to. they were so certain I'd like it).  I'm no Sherlock purist.  Making Watson female would have been ok if the show was actually good or if Joan Watson was as interesting as some of Lucy Liu's other characters.  The New York setting might be alright if it wasn't so gerneric.  There just isn't any chemistry between any of the characters.  Gregson and Marcus or ridiculously bland.  I've loved Johnny Lee Miller in the past and melted when I saw him play Edmund in Mansfield Park and Knightley in Emma, so I thought I may enjoy him as Sherlock.  Not only are Sherlock and Joan boring compared Sherlock and John, (Benedict and Martin, and heck RDJ and Jude), they don't compare to other male/ female crime solve teams like Bones and Booth (JLM could have the charisma od David Boreanaz and Lucy Liu has the ability to be as likeable and intelligent as Emily Deschanel).  JLM and LL don't stand out even against the boring characters on shows like the CSIs and Criminal Minds.

Elementary is poorly written and poorly directed.  There are parts where it's painfully obvious I'm supposed to laugh, and I'm just annoyed.  There are parts when I'm supposed to feel sorry for Sherlock and/or Joan and I just want to yell "get over it" at them.  The mysteries are crap and the resolutions and criminal motivations are pulled from the posterior orphases of the writers (they're polished turds).  The story archs just aren't compelling.  Joan and Sherlock *say* they care about each other, but I just roll my eyes.  John and Sherlock on BBC, continually show that they care for each other.  People say that JLM's Sherlock is more "human" than BC's.  I beg to differ.  Put John in peril, then tell me BC's Sherlock is not human.  People say BC is rude to the people around him.  I don't think it's intentional.  It's more of a lack of self awareness.  When he realized he'd insulted Molly in Belgravia, he clearly felt bad and sincerely apologized.  He definately felt bad in Hounds of Baskerville when he realized he'd hurt John by saying he didn't have friends, and for not knowing Lestraude's first name is Greg.  Moffat and Gatniss have both stated that the two series are about Sherlock discovering his own humanity and ability to care for others (John, Lestraude, Mrs. Hudson, Molly).  They show that journey perfectly.  I've heard people say that JLM's Sherlock is more mature than BC's.  I beg to differ on that as well.  He plays childish pranks on Joan that aren't even clever.  He wines about his daddy issues and lives in an uber nice apartment his daddy pays for, and has sex with prostitutes. BC's Sherlock is a little bratty, but at least he can take care of himself.  And he's bratty behavior is entertaining.

Watching Elementary, I had the same reaction Sherlock had early in the Great Game when he didn't have a case (except I wasn't literally shooting a wall, lol). I also heard Dark Willow from Buffy saying "bored now."

Why was Elementary so determined to bore me when Sherlock BBC and many other shows and films are so delinghtfully interesting.  I may give it another chance someday, but there's just too much else to do in too little time right now.

Sherlock BBC is Organic, Elementary is contrived.

Last edited by josabby (March 20, 2013 1:44 pm)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Whoa.  Sherlock was quoting Spock who was quoting Sherlock....Mind blown!!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/josabby/MinionSherlockJohn.jpg
 

March 20, 2013 1:39 pm  #42


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

I think Elementary would be just fine if it had been pitched as a completely independent detective series with no links to SH at all - but as an interpretation of ACD's creation, I think it has been stretched too far and it just doesn't work.

The plots seem convoluted as well. Also, I did watch the first two to give it a try and at some point Holmes says, "Not everything is deducible."... this kind of annoyed me for some reason because surely that's the whole premise of his detective skills?

I dunno, some people will probably like it I guess.. *rant rant rant*. Apologies.. :D
 

 

March 20, 2013 7:26 pm  #43


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Oh, we do have a thread for this? Wasn't aware of it...

What I think:
Until now I've managed to watch ten episodes so I would say I've got an impression of the show now. 
And after ten episodes I can tell: It's always the same! The concept of every episode is always the same:
- Holmes (I don't dare to call him Sherlock) has got a case and soon he's also got an assumption
- Then he's convinced that he has solved the case and the police arrests a suspect
- Suddenly he begins to doubt
- He sees that he's been wrong (or that there's more behind the case) and this time he really solves it.
The End.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."

"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."

"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"



http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh602/Chiavra/ebd74ea2-f90d-45d6-98e3-63472f860813_zpsceaa7b31.jpg?t=1369572633
 

March 20, 2013 9:12 pm  #44


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

I gave up after four or five episodes. For me it was a waste of time. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

March 20, 2013 9:48 pm  #45


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

josabby wrote:

I thought I'd like Elementary because I like shows like Bones, I've watched five full episodes and had to force myself to finish them (like when I read the twilight series becase sisters and some of my friends begged me to. they were so certain I'd like it).  I'm no Sherlock purist.  Making Watson female would have been ok if the show was actually good or if Joan Watson was as interesting as some of Lucy Liu's other characters.  The New York setting might be alright if it wasn't so gerneric.  There just isn't any chemistry between any of the characters.  Gregson and Marcus or ridiculously bland.  I've loved Johnny Lee Miller in the past and melted when I saw him play Edmund in Mansfield Park and Knightley in Emma, so I thought I may enjoy him as Sherlock.  Not only are Sherlock and Joan boring compared Sherlock and John, (Benedict and Martin, and heck RDJ and Jude), they don't compare to other male/ female crime solve teams like Bones and Booth (JLM could have the charisma od David Boreanaz and Lucy Liu has the ability to be as likeable and intelligent as Emily Deschanel).  JLM and LL don't stand out even against the boring characters on shows like the CSIs and Criminal Minds.

Elementary is poorly written and poorly directed.  There are parts where it's painfully obvious I'm supposed to laugh, and I'm just annoyed.  There are parts when I'm supposed to feel sorry for Sherlock and/or Joan and I just want to yell "get over it" at them.  The mysteries are crap and the resolutions and criminal motivations are pulled from the posterior orphases of the writers (they're polished turds).  The story archs just aren't compelling.  Joan and Sherlock *say* they care about each other, but I just roll my eyes.  John and Sherlock on BBC, continually show that they care for each other.  People say that JLM's Sherlock is more "human" than BC's.  I beg to differ.  Put John in peril, then tell me BC's Sherlock is not human.  People say BC is rude to the people around him.  I don't think it's intentional.  It's more of a lack of self awareness.  When he realized he'd insulted Molly in Belgravia, he clearly felt bad and sincerely apologized.  He definately felt bad in Hounds of Baskerville when he realized he'd hurt John by saying he didn't have friends, and for not knowing Lestraude's first name is Greg.  Moffat and Gatniss have both stated that the two series are about Sherlock discovering his own humanity and ability to care for others (John, Lestraude, Mrs. Hudson, Molly).  They show that journey perfectly.  I've heard people say that JLM's Sherlock is more mature than BC's.  I beg to differ on that as well.  He plays childish pranks on Joan that aren't even clever.  He wines about his daddy issues and lives in an uber nice apartment his daddy pays for, and has sex with prostitutes. BC's Sherlock is a little bratty, but at least he can take care of himself.  And he's bratty behavior is entertaining.

Watching Elementary, I had the same reaction Sherlock had early in the Great Game when he didn't have a case (except I wasn't literally shooting a wall, lol). I also heard Dark Willow from Buffy saying "bored now."

Why was Elementary so determined to bore me when Sherlock BBC and many other shows and films are so delinghtfully interesting.  I may give it another chance someday, but there's just too much else to do in too little time right now.

Sherlock BBC is Organic, Elementary is contrived.

Completely Agree. It would probably be another tolerable 'cop show' but to link it to ACD classic stories then totally disregard the original characters seems silly. I believe they have seen the response of Sherlock and to cash in on that they've just used the names, Which I guess has worked. Who here would have watched this if it wasn't another modern Sherlock adaptation?


================================================================
http://i.imgur.com/xVw8L.jpg
 

March 30, 2013 6:20 pm  #46


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Seeing the success of Sherlock, CBS wanted to do their own version for U.S. television. However, they could not have their own Holmes and Watson running around London because they would have been sued by the producers of Sherlock. So when they did their own show, in order to avoid too many similarities with BBC Sherlock, they had to change major things - like the location of the show, and Watson's gender, etc.  And they changed Homles back story so much to make him different too.

The bottom line is that Elementary has little to no resemblance to the original stories or cannon. It may be a good crime drama, but it is not a good Sherlock Holmes drama.  That point is hard to argue.

The character of Sherlock Holmes has influcenced many characters in crime dramas over the years.  That really is not a problem. For example, I am a fan of The Mentalist, and the character Simon Baker playes has many of the characteristics of Sherlock Holmes. But, he is not calling himself Sherlock Holmes or trying to be that character. When Elementary comes along claiming to be a modern-day Sherlock Holmes show, they had better be prepared for criticisim that rightly comes their way because they have totally gutted the character of Holmes and the cannon completely.

 

April 2, 2013 11:54 pm  #47


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Mary Me said what I was thinking.   I have   watched all Elementary  eps till now,   even the super bowl  one which wasn't very super;   I  have to say   SHERLOCK  is  my  favorite.   It's the cases,  the references to ACD  canon,  and the CLOTHES,   you lot!!!   Elementary doesn't pop out at me like SHERLOCK  does.    


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SHERLOCK!!!!!!
 

April 27, 2013 8:43 pm  #48


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

So I watched the most recent Elementary episode (the one where the rapist was blackmailing the fathers of the victims)
The one character I'm starting to like is Sherlocks sponsor, simply because he told Sherlock to get over himself.  Everytime to writers try to develop Sherlock and Joan, it's more self-involved whiny crap.  I have the deepest sympathy for people who have suffered traumatic experiences, but self induldgence is not compelling or fun to watch.  I'd probably be friends with someone like Joan Watson in real life, but I don't find her an entertaining person to watch.  John (on the BBC show) has certainly been through some traumatic experiences (losing friends in the war) but even he wasn't self involved like Elementary's Sherlock, right after he saw his best friend apparently jump to his death.

I've seen people arguing in favor of Elementary that Joan is more equal in Elementary than John is on BBC.  I say "Rubbish"  If she's so useful, why on earth does Sherlock put things together while she's asleep?  In prettymuch every single episode.  John literally saved Sherlock's life in A Study in Pink.  His military experience comes into play more than his medical experience, like in Hounds when he helps Sherlock get into Baskerville.  When Joan's medical experience comes in, it's almost always something anyone who paid attention in their health class could know, like a chick with Kidney trouble eating a bunch of salty foods.

I've also seen people say that Lucy Liu's Joan beats out Martin Freeman's John because she's a woman.  That's it, their entire argument.  because like there's never been a female Watson before, except that there has.  As a woman I find that supeficial argument patronizing and sexist.  I need to find the review, but this guy did a hilarious analysis of why the Phantom menace was so terrible and one thing he said was "describe a character without using their appearance, clothing, or occupation, the more you can say, the stronger the character is."

You can say a lot more about John than Joan.  He had more character development in each episode than she's had in the entire season,

Last edited by josabby (April 27, 2013 11:58 pm)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Whoa.  Sherlock was quoting Spock who was quoting Sherlock....Mind blown!!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/josabby/MinionSherlockJohn.jpg
 

April 28, 2013 12:23 am  #49


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

josabby wrote:

...You can say a lot more about John than Joan.  He had more character development in each episode than she's had in the entire season,

It's not Lucy Liu's Joan vs. Martin Freeman's John-- IMO it's all about the writing. The writers of Sherlock know their characters, love their characters from the original work (biiiiig ACD fans), and most of all, they know how to write. Elementary's writers don't have a clue, not about any of that, the characters, ACD's original vision, and most of all how to put a good plot together with good characterizations and good dialogue. So, to me, IMO, it's not that John is better than Joan, etc, it's just that John's writers have given him better dialogue and action and interaction with Sherlock than Elemenatry's writers, who have no idea how to do that.

 

April 28, 2013 9:46 am  #50


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

ancientsgate wrote:

josabby wrote:

...You can say a lot more about John than Joan.  He had more character development in each episode than she's had in the entire season,

It's not Lucy Liu's Joan vs. Martin Freeman's John-- IMO it's all about the writing. The writers of Sherlock know their characters, love their characters from the original work (biiiiig ACD fans), and most of all, they know how to write. Elementary's writers don't have a clue, not about any of that, the characters, ACD's original vision, and most of all how to put a good plot together with good characterizations and good dialogue. So, to me, IMO, it's not that John is better than Joan, etc, it's just that John's writers have given him better dialogue and action and interaction with Sherlock than Elemenatry's writers, who have no idea how to do that.

I agree. Though I don't think I would be able to like Joan more than John, even if she was given a better writing etc.
 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."

"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."

"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"



http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh602/Chiavra/ebd74ea2-f90d-45d6-98e3-63472f860813_zpsceaa7b31.jpg?t=1369572633
 

May 5, 2013 8:17 pm  #51


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary


 
 

May 6, 2013 5:40 pm  #52


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

To be honest: I havent't seen much of Elementary but what I saw just didn't impress me.
I genuinely tried to watch it without prejudice but Sherlock just kept saying "BORED!" in my head.
I don't mean to say that it's bad, it's just neither a believable style to do Holmes nor really exciting to me.

 

May 6, 2013 5:41 pm  #53


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

I felt much like you, T3... 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

May 6, 2013 6:08 pm  #54


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

True... I just pictured Sherlock shouting at the TV: "No! No no! Of course he's not the murderer! Look at the turn-ups on his sleeves!"


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."

"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."

"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"



http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh602/Chiavra/ebd74ea2-f90d-45d6-98e3-63472f860813_zpsceaa7b31.jpg?t=1369572633
 

May 11, 2013 2:35 pm  #55


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Just watched another Elementary Episode where Sherlock pieced things together while to supposedly equal Joan slept and a boring montoned blonde's actions caused someone to commit murder. 
 I also saw JJ Abrams say that his people had him watch Sherlock to convince him to cast Benedict.  Peter Jackson was heavily leaning toward casting Martin in The Hobbit because of The Office and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but after watching Sherlock, he rearranged the Shooting schedule so Martin coule play Bilbo.

JLM and Lucy Liu are talented actors, but I don't see any filmmakers just having to cast either of them based on Elementary, maybe their previous work, but not Elementary.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Whoa.  Sherlock was quoting Spock who was quoting Sherlock....Mind blown!!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/josabby/MinionSherlockJohn.jpg
 

May 15, 2013 3:46 am  #56


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

josabby wrote:

Just watched another Elementary Episode where Sherlock pieced things together while to supposedly equal Joan slept and a boring montoned blonde's actions caused someone to commit murder. 
 I also saw JJ Abrams say that his people had him watch Sherlock to convince him to cast Benedict.  Peter Jackson was heavily leaning toward casting Martin in The Hobbit because of The Office and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but after watching Sherlock, he rearranged the Shooting schedule so Martin coule play Bilbo.

JLM and Lucy Liu are talented actors, but I don't see any filmmakers just having to cast either of them based on Elementary, maybe their previous work, but not Elementary.

I have to agree whole-heartedly with you.
I loved Martin in The Office and Hitchhiker's so could very easily imagine that seeing him in Sherlock would clinch the deal for Peter Jackson.


================================================================
http://i.imgur.com/xVw8L.jpg
 

May 18, 2013 2:02 pm  #57


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

I watched the Elementary finale and UGH! they managed to screw up Irene and Moriarty in once and a blatant pitiful attempt to be clever and push the envelope.  They also made a great actress like Natalie Dormer seem bland and generic, that shouldn't surprise me as they've been dulling the awesomeness of JLM and Lucy Liu (that they've had in other roles) all season.  They had people say that Sherlock and Joan were impressive, but the final gotcha they pulled was so poorly executed in the story telling, it didn't make them appear to be clever in the least.  Forget how intense the jump scene was in RF, how insanely awesome Andrew Scott was as Moriarty or Laura Pulver was as Irene.  Forget how great everything was on the BBC series.  The season 1 finale of Elementary was complete crap.  For the next season, they need to fire the current hack writers and directors and star clean with people who can tell a decent story.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Whoa.  Sherlock was quoting Spock who was quoting Sherlock....Mind blown!!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/josabby/MinionSherlockJohn.jpg
 

May 18, 2013 7:25 pm  #58


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

josabby wrote:

I watched the Elementary finale and UGH! they managed to screw up Irene and Moriarty in once and a blatant pitiful attempt to be clever and push the envelope.  They also made a great actress like Natalie Dormer seem bland and generic, that shouldn't surprise me as they've been dulling the awesomeness of JLM and Lucy Liu (that they've had in other roles) all season.  They had people say that Sherlock and Joan were impressive, but the final gotcha they pulled was so poorly executed in the story telling, it didn't make them appear to be clever in the least.....The season 1 finale of Elementary was complete crap.  For the next season, they need to fire the current hack writers and directors and star clean with people who can tell a decent story.

It won't happen, so don't hold your breath. Even if they did fire the current hack writers, they would only be replaced by more hacks. To my knowledge, the only American TV writers who know their nether regions from their elbows all work for HBO these days. The networks don't have any good writers, not for their episodic drama series anyway. And the so-called comedy shows are even worse-- good lord, what a mess.

I've been saying this for months now-- the prob with Elementary is not the NYC-ness, the John being Joan, the funny-looking Sherlock with the iffy past and the only thing even slightly British about him is his clearly-enunciated-for-American-audiences Britspeak, etc--- the problem is that the writing sucks. And so it shall ever be, IMO, as long as it stays on network TV.

 

 

May 18, 2013 8:10 pm  #59


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

HBO do employ good writers but I think it is a bit of an over-generalisation to say that there are no good writers working for other networks. There are very good screenplay working on a variety of programmes/series.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdq1pcLCUR1rs9hrro1_500.jpg
 

May 19, 2013 2:02 am  #60


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Davina wrote:

HBO do employ good writers but I think it is a bit of an over-generalisation to say that there are no good writers working for other networks. There are very good screenplay working on a variety of programmes/series.

I'm curious (not in an argumentative way, I promise) to know in what programs you're seeing good writing (talking only about American TV here). I suspect I don't watch those shows, lol-- what passes for "good writing" on American episodic dramatic TV is akin to enduring a toothache to me, or a migraine headache. Yeah, toothaches and migraines are relevant, but I don't consider them entertainment. I have lots of friends who love (for instance) Bones, Castle, and Dexter, and I cannot abide any of those shows. So maybe the "good" writers are writing stuff that's not my cuppa; in fact, I wouldn't be surprised!

 

 

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