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December 23, 2012 11:27 pm  #1


Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary


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December 24, 2012 1:35 am  #2


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Perhaps it's presumptuous of me to say, but I think Sherlock would win in any fight with Elementary. 


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December 24, 2012 8:30 am  #3


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

If only because Sherlock has John, ex-army doctor as a sidekick and not Joan ex-medic.


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December 24, 2012 12:22 pm  #4


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

It does make a very good point however;(I've only watched two episodes of Elementary.)
Elementary could be ANY 'fairly good' cop show; they really haven't conected it with the canon Holmes at all.
One would suggest they are having problems doing that because Moftiss have already covered some fairly familiar points; finding 'different' things to highlight will become increasingly hard for them as the series goes on.


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December 26, 2012 10:03 am  #5


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

There is no contest....Elementary might be a good crime show if you are in that sort of thing and not (like me) tired of the "male genius female sidekick" trope after Monk and The Mentalist (not to mention all the other genius detectives in television), but it is not and will never be a good Sherlock Holmes adaptation. And the main problem is "Joan Watson"....and not because she is female, but because she is insulting to both the character Watson and to females in General, since, apparently, for a female Watson the one characteristic ALLL adaptions have in common (being an ex-army doctor) can't be for a female John.

 

December 26, 2012 11:41 am  #6


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Many aspects of Elementary are very good, I do however entirely agree about the positioning of the character of Joan. Frankly an ex-army doctor would have been so much better.


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December 26, 2012 1:24 pm  #7


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

I think what I find almost 'anti - canon' about Elementary is that it is TOO modernised.
It has taken the two main characters, who were basically 'good', one even being 'top of the class' and changed them into flawed characters. So now the 'interest' is more in the characters than the detection, the problem solving, etc. Yes certainly the canon focused on Holmes' brilliance, but it didn't depend on delving into his psyche.
This is a modern trend that sometimes goes too far. Today it seems the 'flawed' individuals are propelled up as the heroes of the world and those who are good at everything, have intelligence & common sense, etc are treated as 'commonplace' & no longer celebrated as they once were.
Now I can hear you all howling in disbelief and champing at the bit to take a piece of me. I am not saying 'having flaws' should be classed as wrong, but it is starting to become 'fashionable' in some ways.But the discussion on that is best left to another thread.

What I am saying is , Elementary has 'reversed' one of the key characteristics of the main characters & that to me makes it an anti-canon interpretation.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

December 26, 2012 4:39 pm  #8


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

kazza474 wrote:

This is a modern trend that sometimes goes too far. Today it seems the 'flawed' individuals are propelled up as the heroes of the world and those who are good at everything, have intelligence & common sense, etc are treated as 'commonplace' & no longer celebrated as they once were.

What I am saying is , Elementary has 'reversed' one of the key characteristics of the main characters & that to me makes it an anti-canon interpretation.

I couldn't agree more. Modern day heroes must be flawed, dark and tortured these days. Not that that kind of character isn't infinitely interesting, because he is. But, it seems like every character must be these days, even our classic heroes who weren't are being redefined that way.


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December 26, 2012 5:15 pm  #9


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Elementary is so boring.  There is no chemistry between Sherlock and Watson. Have they added Mycroft or Moriarty yet?  And the episode where the clincher was that the person was allergic to rice, but had a bag of it at their home...well people aren't allergic to rice.  It is very hypoallergenic. Do your research!


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December 26, 2012 5:45 pm  #10


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Mountain Momma wrote:

Elementary is so boring.  There is no chemistry between Sherlock and Watson. Have they added Mycroft or Moriarty yet?  And the episode where the clincher was that the person was allergic to rice, but had a bag of it at their home...well people aren't allergic to rice.  It is very hypoallergenic. Do your research!

Actually, people can be allergic to rice (despite yes, it being considered fairly non-allergenic), just look at google and more cases cropping up.  But yeah, while I agree it just doesn't work on some levels, I was pleasantly surprised it wasn't that bad as a show as a whole.  Just... unfortunately... not entirely uniquely Holmesian.


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December 28, 2012 1:12 pm  #11


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

kazza474 wrote:

I think what I find almost 'anti - canon' about Elementary is that it is TOO modernised.
It has taken the two main characters, who were basically 'good', one even being 'top of the class' and changed them into flawed characters. So now the 'interest' is more in the characters than the detection, the problem solving, etc. Yes certainly the canon focused on Holmes' brilliance, but it didn't depend on delving into his psyche.
.

That's a good point...to me, a good Sherlock Holmes Story is about the riddle, and about how Sherlock solves the riddle, the same way Columbo is not about finding the murder, but finding the mistakes of the murder, in order to proof his guilt. The same way a Columbo episode in which there are suddenly a bunch of suspects and it's about finding the right one wouldn't work for me as a Columbo episode, a Sherlock show which isn't first and foremost focussed on the deduction doesn't for either for me. "Sherlock" spends a lot of time explaining the audience how Sherlock reached a special conclusion, and it also takes time explaining that this method isn't unfaillable (so far, Sherlock failed at least trice...first with thinking that Harry had to be a male, then by inintially dismissing John's information that the death warden was a hobby astronomer as unimportant, and then by wrongly guessing that the sugger might contain something...well, and Moriaty might or might not gotten one over him, I'm not sure how much what Sherlock did on the roof was play acting).

Either way, I digress. The point is: Yes, the relationship between John and Sherlock is important. But the core of a good adaptation are the deductions. And that is something Elementary fails in (at least in the pilot), because it focusses too much on the relationship between Holmes and Joan, not on the (very weak) case.

 

December 28, 2012 1:23 pm  #12


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Davina wrote:

If only because Sherlock has John, ex-army doctor as a sidekick and not Joan ex-medic.

I think Joan Watson was a surgeon at one time. She fell from grace because of some kind of medical mistake and lost her license. I think. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to Elementary, since it's failed to "grab" me much, but I think I remember that about Joan. I feel for Joan's actress, Lucy Liu-- she's really not given much to do or say in that show, and as a character, she's way underused, not like our John in our Sherlock. Right now I'm 3 episodes behind in my watching, so maybe recently there have been some new developments to change all that-- I hope so. And meanwhile, I fear the shippers-- that eventually they're planning to have Joan fall in bed with Sherlock. Ick. (Why else make her female? more ick....)

 

December 28, 2012 1:29 pm  #13


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Swanpride wrote:

...the main problem is "Joan Watson"....and not because she is female, but because she is insulting to both the character Watson and to females in General, since, apparently, for a female Watson the one characteristic ALLL adaptions have in common (being an ex-army doctor) can't be for a female John.

She could have been made an ex-Army doc; they just decided not to, for some reason.

Elementary really is a whack job of a show. He's a Brit, but they've even dumbed down his British accent, presumably to make him more easily understood by an American audience? In the pilot they gave him a couple of British expressions to use (calling people twits, etc, stuff like that) but since then, nada. I'm not sure why they didn't go all the way and just make this Sherlock an American-- that could have been way more clever than this washed-out, washed-down version of Sherlock they've given us.

I guess I'm no Jonny Lee Miller fan either. The other day, it struck me that he bears a striking resemblance to the Beavis character in the old Beavis and Butthead cartoons. And that is NOT a compliment. *hides head*

 

December 28, 2012 1:32 pm  #14


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

kazza474 wrote:

I think what I find almost 'anti - canon' about Elementary is that it is TOO modernised.
It has taken the two main characters, who were basically 'good', one even being 'top of the class' and changed them into flawed characters. So now the 'interest' is more in the characters than the detection, the problem solving, etc. Yes certainly the canon focused on Holmes' brilliance, but it didn't depend on delving into his psyche.
This is a modern trend that sometimes goes too far. Today it seems the 'flawed' individuals are propelled up as the heroes of the world and those who are good at everything, have intelligence & common sense, etc are treated as 'commonplace' & no longer celebrated as they once were....

Bad writing. Cheap, throw-away writing, with only ratings in mind and no love for the characters at all.

 

December 28, 2012 1:37 pm  #15


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Swanpride wrote:

....The point is: Yes, the relationship between John and Sherlock is important. But the core of a good adaptation are the deductions. And that is something Elementary fails in (at least in the pilot), because it focusses too much on the relationship between Holmes and Joan, not on the (very weak) case.

That's because (IMO) the only reason they ever made John a Joan was to eventually get her in bed with Sherlock. It's the only thing that makes a little sense out of a very stupid decision, to make him female. Not only do characters have to be dark and flawed these days, there ALWAYS has to be some opportunity for the hero to fall into bed with some willing female. Must Be Heterosexual. Must End Up Thinking With the Little Head. *rolls eyes*

 

December 28, 2012 1:38 pm  #16


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Yes Joan is supposed to have been a surgeon who lost her license to practise due to an error on the operating table. What I dislike about this notion is that it immediately makes Joan into something of a failure. True, in the original stories and 'Sherlock' Dr. John Watson is an army veteran who has been injured. In 'Sherlock' he is suffering from PTSS and is somewhat 'lost', he is however not a 'failure' because of this. He is damaged but still extremely competent. Joan's past errors threatens any perception of her as competence as a medic.

Joan's new job is to be with Sherlock Holmes whereas John is unwittingly dragged into becoming Sherlock's Flatmate/colleague/friend/blogger. The writers of Elementary appear to be struggling to make the dynamic between Joan and Sherlock into something more akin to the original. What is totally missing of course is Doctor Watson acting as the narrator/recorder of the cases.


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December 28, 2012 1:53 pm  #17


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Davina wrote:

Yes Joan is supposed to have been a surgeon who lost her license to practise due to an error on the operating table. What I dislike about this notion is that it immediately makes Joan into something of a failure. ....
The writers of Elementary appear to be struggling to make the dynamic between Joan and Sherlock into something more akin to the original. What is totally missing of course is Doctor Watson acting as the narrator/recorder of the cases.

Yeah, it's just badly conceived and badly written. No basic understanding of the original characters, no care taken with them, and both Sherlock and Joan are not likeable, IMO. "Our" Sherlock and John are eminently likeable, in spite of their flaws and foibles. But the Elementary pairing are darker, and there's no chemistry at all between them. No idea how they'll get them in bed together, but if the series survives for a while. I would bet my last dollar on the fact that they will end up there, somehow. Both this Sherlock and Joan are failures, in spite of all the clever things Sherlock is allowed to say. He doesn't do much, anyone notice that? probably to save costs on exterior filming and having to hire stunt doubles. He just stands around like a dark haunt in the corner/background of scenes and eventually spouts his ideas.

 

December 28, 2012 5:07 pm  #18


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Of course when you have the boy/girl dynamic sex will eventually come into play. But, if done well the interplay can be fun to watch. Moonlighting is a great example of a boy/girl detective show. It had great writing, acting and chemistry between the actors. But, you need a clear definition of what the show is and how you're going to make it work. You can't just slap a name on it people know, cast a couple of folks and expect it to magically be great. A male British detective (doesn't necessarily have to be Sherlock Holmes) with a female American partner can actually have some unique elements in it, but you have to find the quirky not water it down. And, they have to be equals so they balance each other out as characters. It's actually not a bad idea, but it's really poor executed.


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December 28, 2012 8:39 pm  #19


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

harleyq wrote:

Of course when you have the boy/girl dynamic sex will eventually come into play. But, if done well the interplay can be fun to watch. Moonlighting is a great example of a boy/girl detective show. It had great writing, acting and chemistry between the actors. But, you need a clear definition of what the show is and how you're going to make it work. You can't just slap a name on it people know, cast a couple of folks and expect it to magically be great. A male British detective (doesn't necessarily have to be Sherlock Holmes) with a female American partner can actually have some unique elements in it, but you have to find the quirky not water it down. And, they have to be equals so they balance each other out as characters. It's actually not a bad idea, but it's really poor executed.

Oh, I agree that if it were done well, it'd be acceptable. Big "if", eh?  Bad writing so far on the series, so I don't hold out much hope that it would be done well. Sigh.

 

December 28, 2012 10:14 pm  #20


Re: Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

Concering the "boy/girl" thing they already lost me when Sherlock Quoted to Joan some sort of love confession the moment he saw her, just to make the "he just repeated what he heard on the TV" ?joke?. I'm actually not sure what the scene was suppose to tell me, but if they really want to create a "gender doesn't matter" situation, than the gender shouldn't matter, and not be pointed out at the very first opportunity.

 

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